The number of illegally downloaded video games has gone up nearly 20% in the last five years…..{read the story}
I’m not into gaming – at all – but, I am into music….
People are often heard saying that illegal downloading is/has killed the music industry………its definitely killed music sales……………..but, the industry? Well thats a whole different discussion maybe….
But, illegal downloading? Christians downloading music/games/films illegally?
Why is this an accepted normality for many people now?
I’ve heard rubbish like “If I download an album illegally its just to see how good it is and then I might buy it based on that.”
Oh great, well sure I’ll taste some apples in Tesco to see if I like them and you can read about my jail sentence in the newspaper next week!
Seriously though, I am really curious as to how so many of us justify it as perfectly ok to download illegally…….because it isn’t! Ever!
I know its stupid in this new age but I think mp3′s should be free, the real price to pay is for the full package. I downloaded these guys for free http://www.beepbeep.nl/the-black-atlantic-reverence-for-fallen-trees-2/
I have subsequently bought their Vinyl and Cd.
I dont agree with stealing but dont also agree with big corporations screwing over muscians/filmmakers/programmers.
I don’t think you’ll go to jail for tasting apples.. I myself am one of the people who lifts the apple and squeezes it and checks for bruises and makes sure it’s a good colour and all that.. Also I tend to buy the misshapen carrots because no-one else does.. Anyway I digress.. Is there a musical equivalent of squeezing apples..??
I agree witch ya though.. Our friend runs a Christian night-club type thing for teenagers in Zilina (that’s in Slovakia.. the Z is like in measure and the “I”s are “ee”s.. Zheeleena). The place is full of CDs that are copied/downloaded and he just refuses to acknowledge that there’s anything wrong with it.. It’s very frustrating for me because I am not good with talking to unreasonable people (He for the most part is reasonable, which is all the more surprising!!) What I think is that people have a tendency to justify themselves over admitting they’re wrong (and conversely to see the wrong in other people and begrudge it rather than forgive).
This isn’t new though.. People have for a long time been expecting musicians to provide their product for free. The second Isle of Wight festival was in 1970 and featured such huge names as Kris Kristofferson, Joan Baez, Jimi Hendrix and Leonard Cohen.. The organisers, who were originally going to provide the whole thing for free and I guess make money selling merchandise or something, were forced to charge three pounds for tickets in the end (that was not a lot even in 1970).. Because their original plan was, unsurprisingly, untenable. This sparked a huge crowd of people to begin rioting and tearing down the fences and starting fires on the stage.. This was one of those incidents that I think marked that the 60s were over!
That’s just by way of illustration.. I’m off scrumping to the English channel
Do it a fair bit myself. Think the “try before you buy” argument does have some sway, particularly if you’re into the whole package of an album. I’ve probably bought more music as a result of downloading it first.
Anyway, everytime we rip music from our own CD collections to itunes it’s illegal.
Guy, I hear ya though, disagreeing with the ‘big corps’ is not a reason to steal, sadly some folks seem to use that as a liscense to do so………..there is little logic with that.
Graeme, thats a good example though………
Jonny – how does the ‘try before you buy’ argument have any sway? You are stealing it!
I finally wised up a couple of weeks ago and deleted about 500Gb of illegal TV shows and 30 odd Gb of illegal music that I had downloaded or shared with friends over the years.
It’s illegal and it’s stealing. Simple.
I was wrong, and an idiot in this area, so I’m glad I’ve fixed that now.
Now I need to fix the next areas God has shown me that I’m an idiot in…and there’s a long list…
thanks for the honesty Jason
Just a thought …
Tescos (to use your apple example) invest heavilly in CCTV, in-store security etc to ensure that you don’t A)eat produce on the shop floor and B)walk out without paying for it.
Doesn’t this indicate that record companies / bands / A&R’s should do likewise to ensure that their ‘product’ doesn’t appear online available for free download? Should CD’s be able to be copied?
Secondly (Supported from some sources)
bands don’t make much money from CD sales. They make money from touring, endorsement and sponsorship. ‘Giving’ their product away for ‘free’ does nothing but create business for them in encouraging people to see them live, invest in them etc..
Some people take the view that ‘If I didn’t upload the copy of the CD/Game/Movie to the net, then I’m not guilty? Downloading something which someone else has broken the law to do indemnifies me?’
Check out – http://www.noisetrade.com
Giving your product away for free is a different thing entirely……but yep, I hear ya….
There’s a phrase that keeps coming up for me over and over again in recent weeks/months. The Scriptural call to be “above reproach”. Now, I know it’s given in a very particular context, but it really should be our mantra as Christians.
We could, if we chose to, find an excuse for every indiscretion we knowingly commit. And it’s very rare that we download/pirate something unwittingly. There are many, many laws which are offensive and troublesome and cause us hassle. But not liking the law is not a justification for breaking it. We are citizens of our land and are duty-bound to respect our leaders and legislation, regardless of how difficult that may be.
I agree with you 100%, Ally, any form of music/software/video piracy is theft – pure and simple (and I’m guilty of it). The background to the law is irrelevant, it is the law. If you disagree with a law or think there should be different circumstances about how it should apply, there are ways and means to progress that. Just deciding to break the law is not one of them.
The Tesco analogy seems to be the one we’re going with. Visit iTunes (or Amazon or whatever) and you’ll get a 10/30 second preview of a song. That’s your squeeze test.
Sam Yes.
Tescos (to use your apple example) invest heavilly in CCTV, in-store security etc to ensure that you don’t A)eat produce on the shop floor and B)walk out without paying for it.
This is blaming the victim-
Bands may not make much from record sales, but plety of other people involved in their cover design/recording/production etc. Do.
OK so no1 steals the cover, but it still stands haha
Jonny mate, what is the last cd you bought after downloading it ilegally?! For someone who is in a band and expects people to buy your music, you shouldn’t be downloading illegally. Yeoo!
Mmmmm – Andrew? Check you have gotten the correct Jonny
Argument that ‘the artists are not the ones who get the money anyway’ is ridiculous and makes me so mad at peoples ignorance. There are a lot of other people who WORKED at the cd/movie/whatever that you are stealing from.
One of the things that my friend says, to justify downloading cds is that it isn’t a theft- because you haven’t actually got anything material.As in, they wont be missing it from their numbers- the same way, say if the car or even a real cd in the shop was to disappear. However, that is not even an argument- a)intellectual property? b) it’s still not giving them money for something- it’s like forcing someone to give you a free service, and saying you didn’t take ‘any THING’ from them.
Other than that, I would like to say- CDs and DVDs in Slovakia are (or used to be when I lived there) very expensive (CD averages on 20 pounds, DVD 30+ pounds), so people would download or whatever, which made the cds stay expensive bc they wouldn’t sell well. However, in UK , cds are SO cheap that I really don’t get the justification of downloading it- lunch sandwich costs a little less than a cd! Yesterday I bought 5 dvds for 12 in sainsbury’s – thats 2,4 per DVD! Like seriously, stealing that would be just pathetic. THe only way people would steal it is if they would download THOUSANDS of cds , which I am drawn to believe is really what they do- and that is just pure greediness, and they don’t even care or listen to half songs they’ve downloaded over the years- it has no value for them so therefore they’re not willing to pay for them. This makes me wonder why go into so much trouble of downloading illegally in the first place?! ANyway, sorry for the scatty comment, I wrote as I thought (it shows:P)
Oh Filipa…………….:)
oops haha, my bad!
You’re just a mouth Andrew! lol
Great discussion! Intellectual property (copyrights, trade marks etc) is my area of practice and it’s hugely contentious in the digital era.
My tuppence is as follows. The “big corporations screw over bands” argument can never really get off the ground, since failing to pay for a band’s music means there’s even less money going to the same musicians you feel aggrieved for. Secondly, the fact that ripping CDs to computers, and also to iPods etc is illegal (currently, at any rate – it’s likely to change very soon) is a distraction from the real arguments since no-one has ever been sued or prosecuted for it. Technically it probably is illegal, but since there’s no practical repurcussion it doesn’t really justify a protest. Thirdly, corporations do invest heavily in preventative measures such as DRM (which in turn makes music more expensive!), but there is no such thing as an unbreakable lock. iTunes (and others probably) also embed your account details into your downloads, so that if they show up doing the rounds on Kazaa at a later date they can trace them back to you. And you can be sued for things you did up to 6 years ago…!
But above all else, as already mentioned, a society that permits individuals to ignore whichever laws they don’t like quickly becomes a free-for-all, and we should all want to do our part to avoid that. Is that idealistic? Yes, but why on earth should we set our sights on anything less?
Finally,
Gareth, thanks for that info……..helpful stuff
Ignoring the laws we don’t like – now there is a thought……..speed limits? using a phone whilst driving? evading a tv license? keeping a little back from the tax man?
Just thinking out loud……
Wow. So many thoughts! A few years back I did a lot of downloading of movies/tv series and what not. When my computer got fried, I obviously couldn’t do it anymore. Then I had a conversation with a friend about something different, but the same. We were going to the movie theatre and I had brought sweets with me in my purse. She told me how she didn’t think it was right and that sneaking things in when I wasn’t supposed to is lying and I should be better than that as a Christian. Well, I still snuck in (and ate!) my sweets, but thought about her words after that and haven’t done it since. I also haven’t downloading anything since. Its just wrong. I do watch all my tv online (I’m too cheap to pay for cable!), but I watch on the sites for the channels the shows actually air on – its the corporation putting the shows up there so I’m not bothered by that.
Ally – my small group discussed your last thought a few years ago. We picked a law that we all broke on a regular basis (we chose J-walking) and challenged ourselves to not break it for the next week. It was a test in patience. Not only for me, but for those who I was with who had to wait at a light with me! A friend actually left me to walk 3km alone, because he got so frustrated with having to stop at every intersection with me! It was a great lesson.
“Oh, I know my client broke the law, but it’s a silly law anyway, your honour..” How would that work out for you Gareth..??
Maybe we should turn the discussion to not paying for train journeys…
Graeme, I like that!
I mean, thats awful! I did that once…..got on at whiteabbey, no conductor, got off at ballymena and the shutters were down at the door…….
I am a musician myself and i release music digitally on itunes etc. I feel that this argument can be made more real buy hearing an actual example. For each track that i release it will have taken a long time to write and it will involve a lot of practising and thought before it is ready to record. I will then spend a day in the studio recording the track which is roughly about £350 then i will spend about £20 to put it on itunes for a year. At the end of all of this i will then receive 79p each time it is bought. I am SKINT. I have no doubt that people have my songs and they didn’t buy them and it frustrates me. I put a lot of effort into my producing my music and i feel that when i am £20 short on rent there are easily enough people out there who if they had bought my song would easily make up the difference.
thanks Jonny…….do you illegally download music as Andrew may or may not have suggested?
but really, thanks
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/illegal-downloaders-spend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.html
Maybe doesn’t address the legality issue but backs up my point about spending more as a result
I defer to Gareth on the legal reasoning – he is a specialist I am a mere GP but the fundamentals are this is not a victimless crime according to Jonny, “a society that permits individuals to ignore whichever laws they don’t like quickly becomes a free-for-all, and we should all want to do our part to avoid that” and having breached Gareth’s copyright on that quote to paraphrase a number of other comments WWJD.
I’m not sure about the cinema sweets thing being a good analogy as that is merely assuming you are not allowed to bring your own sweets and not commiting a criminal offence (if sweets at the cinema are still as expensive as they were the last time I bought them then technically bringing your own is preventing a crime by stopping the cinema robbing you blind – Dick Turpin wore a mask!) but observing annoying laws is a good one. I have to be honest and say I haven’t ever considered getting a Christian adornment for my car until I get my speeding habit under control.
As for you Ally Simpson, on behalf of Translink’s solicitors just let me say
“You do no thave to say anything. Anything you do say my be taken down and given in evidence. If you fail to mention something which you later rely on in court….” you know the drill……
haha! ooops, I will need a visit from my district elder……….
Love hearing all the thoughts on this. I, like most of you, have also been guilty of this. Not so much actually downloading off the internet illegally, but borrowing CDs from friends and then putting them on my computer… same thing basically, eh?
It’s wrong, and I need to stop.
Anything else I say here then would just be some attempt to convince myself it would be ok to continue. Love what Sam said about being above reproach. We shouldn’t just try not to sin, we should try to bring the shalom of God anywhere we go. Does my “borrowing” my friends CD bring his shalom?
I’ll ignore the comments as there are probably lots of people trying and failing to justify stealing music.
Ally – very well said. Glad I’m not the only one becoming increasingly frustrated by those who steal music. I think it’s becoming culturally acceptable to illegally download, but that’s no justification for Christians who are called to be in the world and not of it.
How would Christians who illegally download respond to be calling them out on their sin!!? I wonder…
thanks Sam